Blog action day 2008: diskusija

Spalis16

Žymės: skurdas

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Subjektyvus mano požiūris į skurdą galbūt nesulaukė didelio susidomėjimo, tačiau tarp manęs ir mano žmonos užvirė diskusija dėl mano rašinio. Kviečiu ir jus pasisakyti, ką manote šia tema, juk diskusija - vienas pagrindinių "Blog Action Day" tisklų.

Paulius says: Aš nekalbėjau apie žmogų kaip individą, aš kalbėjau apie žmonių grupę, gyvenančią konkrečioje vietoje. Jei gyvūnai sugeba prisitaikyti, turėtų ir žmonės, bet jie gyvena net nesugebėdami patenkinti fiziologinių poreikių. Todėl, remiantis Darvino teorija, jie turėtų tiesiog išmirti... Galbūt gamta pati tai reguliuoja (ypač dėl Afrikoje didelio ŽIV apsikrėtusių žmonių procento)
Dovile says: nu bet tu taip kategoriškai ir su tokiu baisiu smerkinu rašai...tu net nesi ten buvęs ir išvis nežinai kaip yra. o teorijos ir lieka teorijomis...nemanau,kad tiems žmonėms patinka kaip yra, bet tiesiog tokia situacija...
...
Paulius says: Nu aš vakar labai ilgai rašiau tą įrašą, apmąsčiau situaciją įvairiais aspektais, bet manau, kad žmonės, norėdami išbristi iš skurdo, visų pirma, turi patys imtis iniciatyvos, o ne žiūrėti, kaip iš bado miršta jų vaikai ir tikėtis bei laukti humanitarinės pagalbos
Paulius says: galų gale, suteikdami humanitarinę pagalbą mes duodami žuvį, bet ne meškerę...
Dovile says: jie tos pagalbos gauna labai minimaliai...
Dovile says: kai išbristi iš skurdo, jei gyveni šalyje, kuri yra labai skurdi. taui net nėra kaip tobulėti. o emigruoti irgi reikia lėšų-gi neisi pėškom į Europą...o be to kas norės priimti į darbą negrą iš Afrikos...jie vis dar asocijuojasi su pigia darbo jėga...
Paulius says: Nu aš savo įrašą ir pradėjau nuo to, kad žmonės emigravo iš Afrikos. Vadinas, ten nėra taip gerai. Tai kokio bb kiti ten pasiliko?
Dovile says: nu blyn kaip tu siaurai žiūri...beje, ar žinai kad žmonės, europiečiai, grįžę iš Afrikos sako,kad nėra jiems ten taip blogai...nepaisant to, kad jie gyvena palapinėse, valgo vabaliukus ir uogytes, serga baisiom ligom-jie yra laimingi, šypsosi ir domisi viskuo...vat aš ir norėjau pasakyti,kad ne viskas į pinigus susideda. jie kaip ir kokie neįgalūs žmonės ar gyvūnai gyvenantys zoo nežino kitokio gyvenimo ir nereikia jiems to "kitokio" gyvenimo...
Paulius says: Galbūt ir siaurai žiūriu, tačiau manau, kad vistiek reikia kažkaip sugebėti užsiimti agrarine veikla, o iš tų vietų, kur tai neįmanoma, trauktis į derlingesnes...
Paulius says: Taip elgiasi VISI gyvūnai, išskyrus žmones...
Paulius says: Tai taip gaunasi, kad jie yra mažiau išsivystę už primatus
Dovile says: negalima lyginti gyvūnų ir žmonių...žmogus kaip socialinė būtybė yra atsakingesnė, turi jausmus, protą ir t.t. aišku ir gyvūnai tai turi, bet jiems svarbiausia paėsti, atsigerti ir daugintis. žmogui yra daug svarbesnių dalykų. manau,kad būtent dėl šių skirtumų žmogus ir nėra gyvūnas, kuris migruotų ir ieškotų kur ką pripjaut, pavalgyt ir niekuo daugiau nesirūpintų...
Paulius says: Visgi, svarbiausia pirma patenkinti fiziologinius poreikius. O jei kažkuri gyvūnų rūšis to nesugeba, ji turi išnykti arba evoliucionuoti...
Dovile says: bet Afrikos gentys neišnyko...reiškiasi kažkie vistiek sugebėjo prisitaikyti :)
Paulius says: Nu vat kažkoks paradoksas. Jie nei evoliucionuoja, nei išnyksta...
Dovile says: tai apie tai ir reikėjo rašyti
Dovile says: o ne kaip jie laukia išmaldos ir išvis ką jie veikia žemėje...
Dovile says: ir reikėjo apie tai rašyti kaip apie fenomeną
Dovile says: o beje, kaip tu supranti tą evoliucionavimą? tipo jei išbrendi iš skurdo-tai jau evoliocionuoji?
Dovile says: o tai jei žmonės gyvena tam pačiam materailiniam lygyje ir yra visai tuo patenkinti-tai jau jie kažkokie nesveiki, neprisitaikę ir t.t.
Dovile says: aš sakau, tie kurie ten pabuvojo sako, kad tiems žmonėms taip yra gerai, jie net nenori kitaip, tai dabar mes tuos žmones smerkiam todėl, kad jie neturi tėlikų, kurie atima daug laiko, neturi mobiliakų ir kitų įrenginių, kurie kenkia sveikatai, neturi mašinų, kurios teršia gamtą...tiesiog manau kad esi vienas iš pilkos masės manančių, kad tik jų pasirinktas gyvenimo būdas yra geras, duodantis evoliuciją ir t.t. man labai įdomu kokiam lygyje tu būtum kovoje su jais pvz kalbant apie genties tradicijas, jų mediciną, būrimus, medžioklę ir t.t. nemanai, kad jų akimis būtum visiškas neišmanėlis ir neevoliucionavęs padaras, kuris nieko neišmano. manau jų tokia kultūra ie jei taip žmonės gyvena, vadinasi jiems taip gerai ir nereikia primetinėti savo gyvenimo būdi ar smerkti
Paulius says: Ne, aš nekalbu apie patį gyvenimo būdą - tik apie fiziologinių poreikių patenkinimą.
Dovile says: o kodėl manai,kad jie nepatenkina?
Paulius says: Jei patenkina - vadinasi, gyvena ne skurde :)
Dovile says: tai kaip tu rašai tokius starispnius net nežinodamas kaip yra išties...
Paulius says: Tai yra mano subjektyvi nuomonė.
Paulius says: Vienas pagrindinių "Blog action day" tikslų ir buvo užvesti diskusiją. Vadinasi, parašęs tokį kategorišką įrašą bent iš dalies pateisinau tikslus.

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podo (2008-10-16 12:35:57)
Prieš 2 milijonus metų (kaip tu rašai) nebuvo ir žmogaus teisių ir 6,6 milijardo tokių kaip tu, nebuvo didelio atotrūkio tarp turtingų ir skurdžių, nebuvo oro taršos, nebuvo žmonių sluoksnių. Žodžiu, pirma pagalvok kodėl yra skurdas, o tada siūlyk vienokius ar kitokius sprendimo būdus.
Paulius (2008-10-16 15:05:22)
podo > Ir dabar ten nelabai yra modernių bendruomenių bruožų. O net ir tuose kraštuose, kur skurdas yra sąlygojamas ekonominių ar politinių veiksnių, kažką keisti galima. Net ir radikaliomis priemonėmis... Kad ir Spalio revoliucija...
Alfonsas (2008-10-17 13:28:07)
Visų pirma, reikia išsiaiškinti, kas tai yra fiziologiniai poreikiai - pagal Abraham Maslow - tai maistas, vanduo, apranga ir pastogė. Afrikoje bent du paskutinieji gali būti lengvai patenkinti. Kur kas blogesnė situacija dėl visokiausių epidemijų, kurias sukelia karštas klimatas bei visokie kraujasiurbiai - uodai, musės ir t.t. Gal būt jų laipsniškas ir lėtas evoliucionavimas be baltųjų pagalbos būtų buvęs kur kas natūralesnis ir jiems labiau priimtinas ir skurdo supratimas ten, ko gero, visai kitoks nei mūsų...
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